What To Do When Clients Just Don't Get It?

[rustybrick]

I don't really practice full time SEO. But the sites we build here are very SEO friendly (when they need to be). After that, I try to explain the core basics to clients. Many of them get it, some it takes longer, but most eventually get it.

There are some that just do not get it. They just will never understand.

What do you do when your clients just don't get it?

[Andy Hagans]

The answer is simple: FIRE THEM.

If they don't get it, or, if they don't trust YOU to 'get it', they will waste your time, try and lower your price, ask for their money back, etc.

It ain't worth the hassle.

[Chris Boggs]

I like to save those calls for the late afternoon. helps me work on my patience skills. I just love the ones that think they know more about PPC Management than you, even though their prior behavior led them to hire you...

[rustybrick]

I personally find it such a shame. It hurts me deeply. Firing them is one thing. What add more insult to injury. :)

[Nacho]

A good case study or two.... or maybe 10... might do justice. Let them spend their time getting educated, not your time educating them. ;)

[brandall]

It really depends on the client. We get hired all the time by clients who have no interest in SEO. We are always working to educate them and get them interested, but at the end of the day, if a customer is hiring us to improve the conversion rate or design a new product site, and they don't want to focus on SEO, I let it go. Still, everything we design is very SEO-friendly.

Mostly, though, I find clients very open to the SEO conversation. It is so much easier to provide a monetized story for SEO than it is for most web design/development that I find business people very easy to get interested. I usually put together a simple spreadsheet outlining the estimated number of searches for a few appropriate terms to their market, estimate the % of that traffic they can capture with top rankings, multiply it by their conversion rate and their new customer acquisition value and show them how much $$ they are leaving on the table. I find at the VP level and up, that usually gets their attention.

[Dave]

If I were your client, I would want you to be 100% honest with me regarding possible opportunities. I would also hope that you would volunteer basic info and ideas on what can be done to improve my situation, whatever it is. If I like the ideas, I’ll try to get some cash for the development. I would also hope that you would be tolerant of my ignorance and present your case at least a few times before giving up on me. After that… it’s understandable that no one wants to feel like pest. Some people just don’t get it and that’s OK. You still need to feel good about yourself that you did what you could. You can’t say you didn’t try.

Sometimes it’s just timing. The time might not be right for them. Chances are that they will ask for help again later and they might have a completely different attitude and begin to understand SEO better at that point.

I would prefer a Pro-active approach where you pitch a suggestion but some prefer a Re-active relationship with a developer where they need to specifically ask you for help in that area. Reactive people like that require more patience.

If they’re just a drain with endless questions they don’t understand the answers to, and don’t want to pay you for consulting services etc… That’s a different story.

[randfish]

I was noting to a client recently that we DON'T LET them design their own website if they choose to work with us. We hire professional designers and while they certainly get input, they don't have final say - we do. Because we've worked on a performance basis and had such success with it in the past, we've built the level of trust neccessary to get clients to buy into this.

It's certainly not easy, but it's something we do in the pitching process, so they know when it comes time to see the UI, we're in charge.

This applies equally to the SEO portion of a site - I think it's something you have to make clear in the pitch and the contract, otherwise there's going to be problems later on.

[dazzlindonna]

Do they have to get it? As long as they aren't going to undo something important, if they are willing to pay you, knowing that you get it, then they can blissfully go on their merry way.

[EGOL]

I agree 100% with Rand in that they need to hand the site over to you. Ever try pulling teeth?

[rustybrick]

I don't agree about handing the site over to you 100%.

Of course that would be sweet.

But it really depends on the client. A top brand would never be like, sure take our site for brand Y and do what you want with it.

[Vermontwebmaster]

I saty busy enough doing my own sites but on occassion I do a site for a client. How I handle it is first I print all information in a handout that explains SEO etc. Then I sit down with them and explain the handout. If they refuse to listen or do not understand I do not take on the client.

[rustybrick]

Back to Rand, but do you not have to explain why you are doing X, Y and Z? Do some clients not care?

I think the main issue is when a client doesnt get it and they do not have the money to keep trying to "get it". :)

[mugshot]

Really how many client's really "get it?" Every client, I don't care if they get it or not...only cares about one common denominator: Results!

As long as SEOs are upfront with their work and the client agrees to either give 100% control to the SEO or willing to be patient with the process - it's all good. As marketers, we'd like to think that clients will get it - but that's usually a :fencing: between you and the client.

I would rather focus on what I do best and tell the client to chill and do what they do best - run their business. Harsh, but it's like disciplining a child...force them to do something they may not like but it's best for them in the long run.

[rustybrick]

Too harsh Mug.

Many clients want to know what you are doing. This way they can do some things on their own.

[mugshot]

It may sound harsh, and yes clients would like to know what I'm doing and yes I do fill them in on what I do. I guess it's the people skills at the end of the day to make the clients think that your idea is their idea :D

[rustybrick]

Ok Ok, so they give you the keys. Either way, it doesnt matter.

They still want to understand about SEO and how it works.

And they never get it. Now what? Fire them? They are still paying. They are just frustrating. And it is sad.

[mugshot]

If the client never gets it - that's when I show them results and say "This is what SEO is all about" and if they still don't get it then I say "This is what your investment is getting you."

The sad truth is some clients will NEVER understand search but have the money to invest and know that online marketing will bring business. So they entrust their $ in SEOs. It is our obligation to keep that trust and provide results.

[schwal]

I agree with Mug.
Most clients need to see the impact on the bottom line.
You need to show it to them in their terms.

If the client demands lots of attention, make sure that their TOTAL value to you is high enough to support you spending the time to "explain". That may require you to increase their rate. That way non-profitable customers either become profitable customers or they leave you (they are fired).

[randfish]

Barry - I go a very long way to make sure that the client does get it. I spend a lot of time on the phone and through email explaining the process of SEO, the ins-and-outs, the why of how people use the web, how search engines view it, etc.

Two resources I point people to that have really cut down on the questions - the beginner's guide at SEOmoz and Steve Krug's book - "Don't Make Me Think". Once they read those two, they are much more likely to proceed with fewer questions, and when we make "executive decisions" about design, SEO, structure, etc. it's much easier to get the client to buy in.

It also really helps to have them approach you, rather than the other way 'round - this makes the whole relationship different and helps us to do a much better job in general. When we were pitching work on RFBs or to firms who didn't think they wanted our services (years ago), it was not possible to use this system.

As far as "top brands" go... You're almost certainly right - a Fortune 500 and even most Fortune 1000's are not going to be keen on handing over their site part and parcel. However, we do have a client in that sector who was willing to listen to some very tough criticism and took it well. We didn't build their site, just consulting, but it was a similiar situation.

[rustybrick]

Funny, I send people to your Beginners guide all the time.

Either way, I am into teaching the client, since I do not want to do the work.

If I can teach the client, then they can do so much more.

You know, teaching someone how to catch a fish, versus giving them a fish. or something like that.

[mugshot]

Hey Rand,

you gave me an idea :-)

Instead of just recommending the book...why not give the client a copy of the book upon acceptance of the approval as a welcome gift?!!

For a fortune 500 company, the approach is entirely different to a degree. VP of marketing in a F500 company typically "know" everything there is to marketing. Far and few in between are willing to be open to outside ideas - but that makes me wonder why on earth they hired a search expert :D

I have a major retail client and one of the reasons he is open to ideas and changes is because the expectations of our partnership was set during the initial phase of the project (before anything was done).

The big dogs function very differently from the mom and pop shops in terms of business objectives and thinking. As search marketers we have to adapt and I think that's where people find it most difficult. If you are used to dealing with small businesses, chances are you would use similar approaches in a meeting with Ford or GM. Human habit is hard to change. Dealing with a mixture of big and small companies is almost a lifestyle adaptation.

[Dave]

Handing the website over to the SEO might make sense for a small company but it’s almost never going to happen with a large brand.

Just the other day, Mike Moran (Does the search engine marketing for IBM and is coauthor of Search Engine Marketing INC.) posted a warning specifically about that issue on his Blog titled “How to Embarrass Your Company in One Easy Step” http://www.mikemoran.com/biznology/archives/2006/01/how_to_embarras_1.html

When you work with a publicly traded organization you will need to do a lot of hand holding. Even if your primary contact is a person like Mike who “Gets it” you will still need to help your client justify the expense to his superiors, the IT department, the finance committee, as well as every word of your contract to the legal department and accounting. None of these people “Gets it” and have absolutely no idea who you are, or what your reputation might be in the SEO community. (Nor do they care)

I don’t recommend endless hand holding in these situations where the SEO work to be done is a committee decision. However, you will need to do a certain amount of hand holding on pure speculation in these situations if you wnat the job.

First... You will need to qualify the prospect and make a judgment call in these situations. Is your primary contact someone like Mike who “Gets it” and will likely be able to drive the deal to completion over time? Or... Are you dealing with a marketing manager who was assigned to get several bids but does not possess the basic SEO knowledge required to make an informed decision for his company?

Working with one large respected brand can possibly help you get work with others and create a positive snowball effect with your business and reputation, but don’t allow yourself to be sucked in by the undertow a clueless marketing manager is likely to create in these situations either. (IMO) The job is likely to either go to the company who has the most blue chip corporations listed as clients or the lowest bidder who has the best SEO snake oil salesmen.

[randfish]

Dave - I completely agree and that's one of the reasons the small, nimble organization will always have an advantage in certain areas of business/marketing/development/etc over a big company.

Besides that, the rewards of working with firms that can go from mom+pop to millions in revenue over the course of a few years work are two-fold. In addition to taking a revenue percentage on the increase in business (which we've done), it's very personally rewarding for me to be able to look at what we've been able to make from such humble beginnings. Certainly more rewarding than a six-figure contract with a public company where not much changes and most of the effort is spent convincing VPs to adopt your approach.

[Dave]

I love this quote from Greg Boser on his About page. “I simply have no tolerance for the high-level of cluelessness and incompetence that exists in the corporate world. As hard as I tried, I just couldn’t convince myself that spending 6 months cranking out dozens of crappy powerpoint presentations, in an attempt to convince someone who should still be working in the mailroom, that we really needed to change their site’s title tags, was a fun and rewarding experience.”

LOL... I can sympathize entirely but I don’t necessarily agree with that POV either.

I’m not trying to bash large corporations. (I work for one) it’s not better or worse IMO just different. It just helps to know what to expect going into it. As long as the work you do has an impact, I believe it’s just as rewarding to help a large company as a small one. But... A lot of that depends on your personality.

In an attempt to pull myself back on topic, here is a quote from Barry.
“Overall, I think most wouldn't mind a client to keep paying them to restate the same topics each time. But what if you just feel like it is not going anywhere? What if you feel so bad for the client that you tend to not want to give up? What if the client wants to know and learn but can't?”

That’s a tough one. Some of my former clients became good friends and still have hope that I will someday be able to work with them again on their website. It’s easy to become attached to genuinely nice people. Sometimes clients become friends and I always want to help my friends. I slowly let a couple of clients go but it involved a weaning process that took almost half a year. It was a process of encouragement as well as avoidance. We still stay in touch and are still good friends.

[brandall]

I don't agree about handing the site over to you 100%.

Of course that would be sweet.

But it really depends on the client. A top brand would never be like, sure take our site for brand Y and do what you want with it.
I agree. SEO is one of the services we offer, but it is certainly not the biggest income generator. Some of our smaller clients are more than happy to turn everything over to us. We'll architect, design, build and to a large degree, market their site. But know Forture 1000 firm is going to work that way, and to expect them to is silly.

Rand, you are right that smaller firms have some advantages, but I'll take a $500K contract with a big firm (which usually leads to many more similar contracts with other divisions of the same firm) before I'll take a small contract with a small firm any day. Even though I have to deal with all the levels of political BS, and have to work hand in hand with their Ad agency, internal marketing teams, internal and 3rd-party tech teams and so on in order to do anything, the benefits are still huge.

And as crippled as huge corporations are in many ways, you still have a better chance at a successful project with them then with the small guy. After all, almost every F1000 firm in business today will still be in business and thriving in 5 years. Most of the small, early-stage start ups will not.

At the end of the day, I WANT my client to fully get it. I want them to give me all the latitude I need to do the best job possible. I want them to take ALL of my advice. But with larger clients, that never happens. What I need, is much less. As long as I get enough understanding, access and latitude to successfully accomplish what I promise, I'm happy.

[grasshopper]

to respond to the back-and-forth between mugshot and barry, the only thing that comes to mind is a quote from kurt vonnegut in "cat's cradle", where the protagonist said (paraphrasing), that any scientist who couldn't explain what he does to an eight year old is a charlatan.

while i tend to agree with that viewpoint in principle, the next question that pops into my head is whether or not it makes sense, from an opportunity cost standpoint, to spend the time necessary for client education. i fully support the idea of making the client do some of their own homework - make them put some "skin in the game", as sales guys like to say. if they're willing to read background material, then it's far more likely that i won't waste time either speaking in an essentially foreign language to them, or have to backtrack repeatedly over ground we've already covered.

on the other hand, there are those clients, as rand and EGOL pointed out, that are willing to give you the keys and do all the driving. they understand the destination, and you should be held accountable for taking the steps to get there, but they aren't the "backseat drivers" that can make a long day feel like forever. getting to that level of trust with clients is good.

[rustybrick]

Right grasshopper, and I agree, the trust is critical.

But there are cases where the education helps build the trust.

Outside of that, trust and education really are two different things.

No one said that the client did not trust you a 100%. The discussion is simply about what to do when this client (that either trusts you are doesnt) doesnt get it. :)

But very valid point.

[mugshot]

Very excellent discussion!!

I've always held on to the saying that "If something doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger."

If a client can do some legwork and learn what SEM/SEO is about and dont go :confused: :eek: :confused: then it will certainly make the project a lot easier and efficient.

[grasshopper]

i hear you, barry. to your original question - what to do when i client just doesn't get it - i guess the distinction i draw is that i've been in situations where i have a client that understands the benefits of a good SEO campaign, yet they have no interest in how, precisely, the campaign is executed. in a manner of speaking, that client "doesn't get it" from an operational standpoint, but so long as they see the impact on the bottom line in accord with the expectations you've set, they don't care. to me, that's the "trust factor" with a client.

there are also cases where the client "doesn't get it", but wants to understand the mechanics of what you're getting paid to do - which is perfectly reasonable, and should be encouraged - so i offer them the necessary background information about SEO. in my experience, clients who fall into this category end up in one of two groups:

1) client "doesn't get it" but is willing to learn - client IS willing to do some general SEO-related research on their own time, in which case it's easier to communicate with them and get confirmation of understanding when setting expectations

2) client "doesn't get it" and is UNWILLING to learn - client is NOT willing to do general SEO-related research on their own time. in my experience, these clients tend to be disadvanantaged by having outdated information about SEO, and as a result have unrealistic goals, e.g. a #1 ranking across all engines can be achieved through manipulation of meta keywords tags, specific keyword densities, etc. i have a friend in the industry that landed what he thought was a great account, only to find that the CEO of the client company had read some cr*p newsletter sent out by a dodgy SEO firm the area, and the CEO was now checking the on-page keyword density percentages of random pages on a weekly basis to see if they were "right". no one could shake him from his belief that this was a VERY important metric. i did not envy my friend

in the second case, i've got to go with hagans all the way - fire that client like you're a pyromaniac. after a certain amount of careful consultation, you have to be willing to cut your losses in terms of opportunity cost lost to educating a client. who knows? there's always the possibility that you're just not the right one to teach them....

[Dave]

I had a small client where once a week I would go over to the guy’s house and work on his website. He knew just enough about SEO and Dreamweaver to be a danger to himself. About every other week it was damage control time. One week, every other word on the home page would be formatted as H1. A couple of weeks later he would have the site mirrored into several subdirectories linking to each other. The next he would place nearly 100 keyword stuffed links on the home page which were nearly all linking to the same 5 pages or 100 alt tag keyword stuffed 1x1 pixels. It went on and on. You name it… he did it. I would spend all day setting up an AdWords account for him and the next week, they would all be gone because he changed the creative messages I made to say something like “$$$Worlds Best WIDGETS!!! Click Here!!! Do it NOW!!!”

I would spend the first half hour listening to him explain his new marketing technique. The next hour I would explain why it’s only going to get him in trouble and the next few hours cleaning up the mess.

Nothing I said worked. The basic concept he didn’t understand was “Nuance”. If a drop of cologne smells nice and it's attractive… That doesn’t necessarily mean you should dump the entire bottle on your head. He just didn’t get it.

This went on for about six months. At first I didn’t mind because he paid me on time and was always extremely thankful for my help. Him and his wife were great people to be around etc… It was harder than you might think to cut the poor guy loose.

He still calls me after all his ads disappear and I give him free advice on how to comply with editorial guidelines, etc. I was never able to cut him loose completely because I think of him as a friend in need.

[MikeDammann]

I've seen some hopeless clients gain pretty good and targeted SE traffic just by blogging. Normally I set them up with a WP blog before I get too frustrated, and just tell them "start writing", then they ask "Write what?" and I say "Whatever you feel like".

It works (in quite a few cases :) ).

[Rebecca]

After an extensive introduction about where I came from, how long I have been the in the business and my strengths that I bring to the team and to my client, I sent a document with properly optimized SEO content that is marketable, in small chunks with bullet points and so on.

This is what I got: :eek:
Dear Rebecca,

What you have provided would be excessive and uninteresting to the buyers we hope to attract.
I'll be back to you later when I have more time.

Mr. Marketing Associate never got back to me, put up his own content with all the improper keywords with slashes and all, poor linking strategy, and ho-hum content. Never in my life has that happened. But you know what?

I Do Not Care. He can hang himself and then come crawling back. :D

[InfoSourcing]

Hi,

I have worked with several clients small and medium in doing seo projects, e-commerce and enterprise solution, some of them are smart in their business some of them don't get it...

I start out my project by understanding the scope of the project client wants and then put couple of solution on the table with some cost figures associated to it and then let the client decide ...

with an outline of that now I present the client with a demo of what he gets in terms of deliverables and if it is SEO related then I take them through Organic and Paid engines Pro's and Cons, set expectation and time line for each of those ... for eg: if you PR is 0 expect your site to come up in 6-12 months make them understand abt sandbox (if it exists ...lol)

Provide real time example of other client websites and references so they can call and feel what other business owners have felt very impt ..... coz when business owners talk to each other they talk in their language (money) create a community kind of feeling ...

I also give them a dose of my process and what to expect and when by taking them through this process charts http://www.info-sourcing.com/SEO_SEM.htm#Sample_SEO and the entire web development process http://www.info-sourcing.com/Websolutions.htm so they understand clearly ...

Sometimes this information could be overwhelmed to clients, but most of my clients are happy to learn new things .... Let me know what you guys think ...

[BKCB]

I "borrowed" the title above from Stoney deGeyter's signature on SEW Forum ("attribution" is important) :amen: (Great smilie selection !)

This is a great discussion thread that was started with a great "open ended question". It brings into play the two biggest challenges to the healthy growth of Search Marketing Industy: Education and Credibility. I agree with rustybrick when he said "But there are cases where the education helps build the trust. Outside of that, trust and education really are two different things." However, depending upon how important each client is to you, "continuing education" may become even more important in the future, and it probably is being requested by more and more SEO clients for many reasons.

If they "just don't get it" after as many attempts as you feel appropriate, then you need to ask them how important is it for them to "get" whatever it is that they "don't get" (hopefully you asked this BEFORE taking on that client to set breakpoint "get it" levels). If the client says "it's crucial", sometimes a tactful, diplomatic parting of the ways needs to happen for both party's sakes.
One thing is for sure is that open, honest, upfront, and "good" - clear, conspicuous, comprehensive, and comprehended communication is a must before, during, and after a client's contract term. The client has that same responsibility, which both consultant and SEO prospect should agree upon before entering into the relationship. There has to be some upfront evaluation and then trust by both on that point.

After dealing with many frustrating prospects and clients for many years in trying to "educate them to an opportunity, and then make it easy for them to buy" internet directory advertising-marketing (for 8 years) and offline directory advertising-marketing (for 20 years with a 8 yr. overlap of doing both), I am certainly empathetic with many of the great posts here based on "frustration" (especially Dave's post #31).

What is important to anybody is where they spend their time, and where they spend their money. If an SEO can prudently and accurately evaluate the specific client "just don't get it" situation, then they are in the best set of circumstances to decide what is best for them to do, taking into account their own current business and personal life situations (experience does help as long as you judge each situation individually).

Sorry for the lengthy post, but my last "2 cents" is to say to try to have a decent amount of empathy for the SEO prospect-client as he "does not yet know as he ought to know". The educational process for most SEO-SEM prospects and clients can almost be as overwhelming as what a new SEO-SEM has to learn as provided by Nacho's "SEM 101" suggestions in his SEW Forum thread here = http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=2086 . How much education depends upon the "get it" level the client feels he wants/needs.

This is my first post in this forum, so should I show my "face" here again in the future? :behindsof (Believe it or not, I'm really here more to learn than to give "my 2 cents")